@Gerard aka Glue Sniffer types and types, but cannot think. Time to deactivate this mindless and soulless ‘bot.
Gerard
Maybe that is the point then. You are sure you are in step with Chomsky. I think Chomsky is actually very different from you and Hedges. Maybe you don’t see it.
Examine carefully the times Chomsky has shown appreciation for his Jewish heritage and American schooling and such. It’s not a complete rejection of everything. When asked “Why do you hate America” I think I have heard him say “I love my country. It’s my country” in balance with everything he has to criticize. I can’t find him say it easily but it know he has said nearly this or very close to it.
Gerard
One thing common in our humanity as a species is grouping. What makes Eusocial animals like ours and others unique, as in only 20 lines of species out of 60,000 ( see EO Wilson ), is a natural social grouping within the species.
What it means is that our biology doesn’t favor world unification, and world cooperation. No, our species is strongly eusocial, with grave negative consequences for those who wish for high independence outside a strong group.
Put this way. You pay taxes in the U.S. you go to public schools and use the roads and bridges built for us all. You share many many things within the group defined by our institutional and physical borders. If you want to test the principle that belonging is essential to survival, try not belonging for decades with diss trash talk about the nation and society you are in without ever being thankful for any of the key elements that sustain you and see how things go.
While Chomsky paid a price for his descent and nearly went to jail for it in the late 60s, he also did much to give to his country. He developed the universal grammar that propelled MIT and our academies to the forefront of linguistics. In many ways his critique has been balanced. He praised Dewey and the school he attended. He did much to show his appreciation.
What can any of us do to show we belong and support? That has to be our mission, to have values and say what they are and defend in some way what defines us
Gerard
I mean, …, I didn’t mean you. You aren’t a Jihadist, Fish. Not you. Sorry
Gerard
Uncle Sam is bruised by trash talk art but so thankful that he sits in a chair where he gets to have hot dogs, bun and mustard smeared across his Stars and Stripes outfit. He is bruised and a littlr sad with his head in his hands, but so thankful his artist friend is not a jihadist sitting across from him in a dungeon tunnel under Gaza
Beak
@Gerard Immigrants? You mean refugees created through US foreign policies. Whether it is the pointless invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan, proxies in Syria and now Israel’s punishment of Lebanon or supposed (but not really) support of Ukraine or disasters like NAFTA where Mexicans cannot sustain themselves and come here. The only place you have read Chomsky is in your glue sniffing delusions.
Gerard
When we experience such great privilege, through nothing but luck, is it wrong to acknowledge it and be thankful? Is it truly bigotry to say I’m Proud to be an American?
Gerard
I know that I’ve heard Chomsky be thankful for being an American. I know I have
Gerard
Dear Fish
I finally got to reading past your Chomsky thing, so now I’m processing your nationalism and tribalism part , and that is deserving a comment.
There is a changing Gerard and it’s been happening for some time and it’s worth stating as you have known me some time
Nationalism and tribalism are words used to smear patriotism and belonging. Often, endlessly. It’s an interesting topic that deserves everyone’s deep thought wherever you are from and whatever you believe.
But instead debating you by going silent on this, or trying to combat with the usual ways nationalists and even tribalists might do, I’ll try to respond honestly.
I think belonging, as in what you eat and what you sing and what language you speak is all extremely important and many many things give is identical we call American.
Some of the things that identify us include diversity itself, as contradictory as that might sound. Other things include the simple hot dog and baseball. All very superficial, but none the less important
Here are some things about my place of origin that I’m proud of. I’m proud of our STEM dominance in the world. I am proud of our wealth that brings people in droves to want to enter. As you know, I have had a lot of immigrants in my life and supported a few and still do. Immigration is wonderful when done according to our rules. Other things I’m proud of are rules on the environment, as we have with the EPA for example. Our courts ensure kidnappers don’t have a profit making system to exploit exploit here, like they do in Mexico and other South American countries. I once heard an interview by Lex Fridman about kidnappings . It’s very interesting. In Mexico and South America you are most probably going to get returned, because you are a product and get delivered on payment. Not so much in the U.S. you are highly unlikely to get returned here if you are kidnapped, because kidnappers get caught and sent to prison.
So, yeah, when I sponsor an immigrant and they move to citizenship and we both say the pledge of allegiance at the citizenship ceremony, I actually am a proud American
I don’t think we are at all on the same page about belonging and how important it is in a world where bad actors really have a Death Wish for the American Empire. It’s fine. It’s an empire, let’s admit it. Though it’s hardly the despotic type of hegemony
What about the USA makes you belong and want to belong? It could just be thankfulness to express yourself freely. Is that not something to take pride in and be thankful for?
Beak
No shortage of idiots like @Gerard who have nothing useful to say.
Gerard
we could look at what Chomsky said about October 7. I have not heard or seen his writing on this however, since I know Chomsky pretty well through his language and what he’s written, I would presume an opinion of barbarism on that matter. Can we find it. I’m guessing he’s out there on record on that matter. Am I wrong.
Gerard
I’ll comment as I have time. Fitting in a quick reply, and just to the first part now. But I immediately see a problem with your thinking I am saying that Chomsky praised the American government. I’ve followed him pretty closely. I heard him call every U.S. president a war criminal. I’ve heard him say the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes. I’ve heard him respond that no nation government is without blood on their hands. East Timor genocide is on American Hands. And so on
But is it ludicrous to say that he at least can compare and contrast also? Does he not do that? Does he not do critical analysis so it is at least balanced and just as harsh or harsher where such harshness is due?
He might say it is more important to criticize where one can have more impact. What is the point of criticizing Russia when it is less impactfully to criticizing the U.S. I know that aligns with what you are saying. But I still here in him some level of exposure of the crimes of other nations and groups
Is he not at least a little different than you on that?
More later. Other thoughts as I get a minute in my day
Graeme
Oo dear.
To start with Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media was co-authored by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky.
[Chomsky is on record as stating that “most of the book” was the work of Edward S. Herman.
Wintonick, Peter, and Mark Achbar. 1995. Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media. Montreal: Black Rose Books.]
Dear Dwayne,
thanks for your written reply; and your critical cartoons, you get to the seat of the issue with clarity, succinctness and humanity, often missing in the blather of the talking heads currently populating our TV screens.
“Well, let me pause to say that the hot dogs still taste okay.”
I suspect even they’ve turned to tasting like shit.
Your assessment of Chomsky is debatable, dare I say ludicrous, re his praise for the actions or decisions of the U.S. government. He often went out of his way to delegitimize the very existence of nation states. Indeed, he sometimes spoke of how our opportunity to exercise free speech in the States was unique, but then he would go on to describe how our exercising of such freedoms was both strenuously discouraged and harshly penalized by big business and the government and greatly diminished by the self-censorship that we, as a society, practice in an attempt to avoid such penalties. (That’s what Manufacturing Consent is all about!) Anybody interested in testing the viability of your point should familiarize themselves with Chomsky’s work and make their own assessment. Additionally, in the same way that I would never pause to praise 19th century America for treating its slaves better than they were treated in the 18th century, I refuse to ignore the barbarity of contemporary America to say, “Well, let me pause to say that the hot dogs still taste okay.” Finally, your complaint about my art not depicting Uncle Sam as a hero from time to time is not worth addressing, nor is your suggestion that I should occasionally present myself as a proud American. Embracing any form of nationalism and considering such an embrace as a virtuous part of my character will never happen. Such tribalism is grotesque and the primary deterrent that contributes to our collective inability to recognize our common humanity as a species. That said, I’ll leave it to you and others to perpetuate the idiotic notion that such codification techniques ( those based on race, religion, politics, gender, sexual preference, etc.) are viable sorting tools, for without them we would have a tougher time separating the good from the bad, the worthy from the unworthy, and, ultimately, the ones deserving a meaningful life from those deserving a meaningless death.
Gerard
The totality of your drawings of Uncle Sam are something an adversary of the U.S. would find. I don’t remember ever seeing and kind of patriotic message in any of what you have made in all the years I’ve followed you
Is that balanced and fair? Even Noam Chomsky, who I’ve listened to and read a lot of, will occasionally say something good about the U.S. government. He recognizes balance by comparing for example. When he famously wrote Manufacturing Consent, for example, he did not then never mention or point out the virtues of our liberal western media over others.
The problem with the cartoons, especially now, is that they could easily be the propaganda of a foreign group, rather than the conscience of a member of a proud American who just wants better from his government
@Gerard aka Glue Sniffer types and types, but cannot think. Time to deactivate this mindless and soulless ‘bot.
Maybe that is the point then. You are sure you are in step with Chomsky. I think Chomsky is actually very different from you and Hedges. Maybe you don’t see it.
Examine carefully the times Chomsky has shown appreciation for his Jewish heritage and American schooling and such. It’s not a complete rejection of everything. When asked “Why do you hate America” I think I have heard him say “I love my country. It’s my country” in balance with everything he has to criticize. I can’t find him say it easily but it know he has said nearly this or very close to it.
One thing common in our humanity as a species is grouping. What makes Eusocial animals like ours and others unique, as in only 20 lines of species out of 60,000 ( see EO Wilson ), is a natural social grouping within the species.
What it means is that our biology doesn’t favor world unification, and world cooperation. No, our species is strongly eusocial, with grave negative consequences for those who wish for high independence outside a strong group.
Put this way. You pay taxes in the U.S. you go to public schools and use the roads and bridges built for us all. You share many many things within the group defined by our institutional and physical borders. If you want to test the principle that belonging is essential to survival, try not belonging for decades with diss trash talk about the nation and society you are in without ever being thankful for any of the key elements that sustain you and see how things go.
While Chomsky paid a price for his descent and nearly went to jail for it in the late 60s, he also did much to give to his country. He developed the universal grammar that propelled MIT and our academies to the forefront of linguistics. In many ways his critique has been balanced. He praised Dewey and the school he attended. He did much to show his appreciation.
What can any of us do to show we belong and support? That has to be our mission, to have values and say what they are and defend in some way what defines us
I mean, …, I didn’t mean you. You aren’t a Jihadist, Fish. Not you. Sorry
Uncle Sam is bruised by trash talk art but so thankful that he sits in a chair where he gets to have hot dogs, bun and mustard smeared across his Stars and Stripes outfit. He is bruised and a littlr sad with his head in his hands, but so thankful his artist friend is not a jihadist sitting across from him in a dungeon tunnel under Gaza
@Gerard Immigrants? You mean refugees created through US foreign policies. Whether it is the pointless invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan, proxies in Syria and now Israel’s punishment of Lebanon or supposed (but not really) support of Ukraine or disasters like NAFTA where Mexicans cannot sustain themselves and come here. The only place you have read Chomsky is in your glue sniffing delusions.
When we experience such great privilege, through nothing but luck, is it wrong to acknowledge it and be thankful? Is it truly bigotry to say I’m Proud to be an American?
I know that I’ve heard Chomsky be thankful for being an American. I know I have
Dear Fish
I finally got to reading past your Chomsky thing, so now I’m processing your nationalism and tribalism part , and that is deserving a comment.
There is a changing Gerard and it’s been happening for some time and it’s worth stating as you have known me some time
Nationalism and tribalism are words used to smear patriotism and belonging. Often, endlessly. It’s an interesting topic that deserves everyone’s deep thought wherever you are from and whatever you believe.
But instead debating you by going silent on this, or trying to combat with the usual ways nationalists and even tribalists might do, I’ll try to respond honestly.
I think belonging, as in what you eat and what you sing and what language you speak is all extremely important and many many things give is identical we call American.
Some of the things that identify us include diversity itself, as contradictory as that might sound. Other things include the simple hot dog and baseball. All very superficial, but none the less important
Here are some things about my place of origin that I’m proud of. I’m proud of our STEM dominance in the world. I am proud of our wealth that brings people in droves to want to enter. As you know, I have had a lot of immigrants in my life and supported a few and still do. Immigration is wonderful when done according to our rules. Other things I’m proud of are rules on the environment, as we have with the EPA for example. Our courts ensure kidnappers don’t have a profit making system to exploit exploit here, like they do in Mexico and other South American countries. I once heard an interview by Lex Fridman about kidnappings . It’s very interesting. In Mexico and South America you are most probably going to get returned, because you are a product and get delivered on payment. Not so much in the U.S. you are highly unlikely to get returned here if you are kidnapped, because kidnappers get caught and sent to prison.
So, yeah, when I sponsor an immigrant and they move to citizenship and we both say the pledge of allegiance at the citizenship ceremony, I actually am a proud American
I don’t think we are at all on the same page about belonging and how important it is in a world where bad actors really have a Death Wish for the American Empire. It’s fine. It’s an empire, let’s admit it. Though it’s hardly the despotic type of hegemony
What about the USA makes you belong and want to belong? It could just be thankfulness to express yourself freely. Is that not something to take pride in and be thankful for?
No shortage of idiots like @Gerard who have nothing useful to say.
we could look at what Chomsky said about October 7. I have not heard or seen his writing on this however, since I know Chomsky pretty well through his language and what he’s written, I would presume an opinion of barbarism on that matter. Can we find it. I’m guessing he’s out there on record on that matter. Am I wrong.
I’ll comment as I have time. Fitting in a quick reply, and just to the first part now. But I immediately see a problem with your thinking I am saying that Chomsky praised the American government. I’ve followed him pretty closely. I heard him call every U.S. president a war criminal. I’ve heard him say the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes. I’ve heard him respond that no nation government is without blood on their hands. East Timor genocide is on American Hands. And so on
But is it ludicrous to say that he at least can compare and contrast also? Does he not do that? Does he not do critical analysis so it is at least balanced and just as harsh or harsher where such harshness is due?
He might say it is more important to criticize where one can have more impact. What is the point of criticizing Russia when it is less impactfully to criticizing the U.S. I know that aligns with what you are saying. But I still here in him some level of exposure of the crimes of other nations and groups
Is he not at least a little different than you on that?
More later. Other thoughts as I get a minute in my day
Oo dear.
To start with Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media was co-authored by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky.
[Chomsky is on record as stating that “most of the book” was the work of Edward S. Herman.
Wintonick, Peter, and Mark Achbar. 1995. Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media. Montreal: Black Rose Books.]
Dear Dwayne,
thanks for your written reply; and your critical cartoons, you get to the seat of the issue with clarity, succinctness and humanity, often missing in the blather of the talking heads currently populating our TV screens.
“Well, let me pause to say that the hot dogs still taste okay.”
I suspect even they’ve turned to tasting like shit.
Your assessment of Chomsky is debatable, dare I say ludicrous, re his praise for the actions or decisions of the U.S. government. He often went out of his way to delegitimize the very existence of nation states. Indeed, he sometimes spoke of how our opportunity to exercise free speech in the States was unique, but then he would go on to describe how our exercising of such freedoms was both strenuously discouraged and harshly penalized by big business and the government and greatly diminished by the self-censorship that we, as a society, practice in an attempt to avoid such penalties. (That’s what Manufacturing Consent is all about!) Anybody interested in testing the viability of your point should familiarize themselves with Chomsky’s work and make their own assessment. Additionally, in the same way that I would never pause to praise 19th century America for treating its slaves better than they were treated in the 18th century, I refuse to ignore the barbarity of contemporary America to say, “Well, let me pause to say that the hot dogs still taste okay.” Finally, your complaint about my art not depicting Uncle Sam as a hero from time to time is not worth addressing, nor is your suggestion that I should occasionally present myself as a proud American. Embracing any form of nationalism and considering such an embrace as a virtuous part of my character will never happen. Such tribalism is grotesque and the primary deterrent that contributes to our collective inability to recognize our common humanity as a species. That said, I’ll leave it to you and others to perpetuate the idiotic notion that such codification techniques ( those based on race, religion, politics, gender, sexual preference, etc.) are viable sorting tools, for without them we would have a tougher time separating the good from the bad, the worthy from the unworthy, and, ultimately, the ones deserving a meaningful life from those deserving a meaningless death.
The totality of your drawings of Uncle Sam are something an adversary of the U.S. would find. I don’t remember ever seeing and kind of patriotic message in any of what you have made in all the years I’ve followed you
Is that balanced and fair? Even Noam Chomsky, who I’ve listened to and read a lot of, will occasionally say something good about the U.S. government. He recognizes balance by comparing for example. When he famously wrote Manufacturing Consent, for example, he did not then never mention or point out the virtues of our liberal western media over others.
The problem with the cartoons, especially now, is that they could easily be the propaganda of a foreign group, rather than the conscience of a member of a proud American who just wants better from his government
No??